(EP 30) John Cotton (Accounting Recruiting Pro): The Real Reason Top Performers Ignore Your Firm.

John Cotton – Recruiting – what to look for

Welcome to the #CriticalFewActions to improve your business podcast. I’m John Downes and I’m here to help you cut through the overwhelm and prioritize what matters most to improve your business. Let’s get started and discover the #CriticalFewActions that have the biggest impact.

I’d like to introduce you to a buddy of mine, John Cotton of Barnaby Recruitment. John and I worked together many years ago at Deloitte, where he got to understand, as an accountant, what it was like to work for a large professional services firm. And For the last 11 years, he’s recruited hundreds of future leaders into professional accounting firms across Australia.

So Today, I wanted to actually pick John’s brains on how do I find the right candidate or how do I help the candidates be successful? So, John, let’s just think about that for a minute. So how do we actually find the right candidates? [00:01:00]
John Cotton: It’s mainly through networking is the is the main way of getting candidates linked.

LinkedIn has been a God sent to the recruiter and a lot of people find are found on LinkedIn. So One tip is to actually have your LinkedIn profile up to date, uh, but also on LinkedIn, be quite verbose about, you know, about what you’re doing. Just don’t say, you know, Senior Accountant at Pricewaterhouse, um, you know, explain what you’re doing at Pricewaterhouse, explain that you’re in order, explain that you’ve been working on financial services companies, or explain that you’ve been working on, you know, uh, retail industry customers or something like that, because different things like that, the things that people pick up.
Right, right. So, so
John Downes: LinkedIn is, is prime, um, prime hunting territory for, would that be right? Seek, seek as a, as a, um, advertising, like
John Cotton: SEEK used to be really good. Uh, and it’s, I actually think SEEK is probably better for, uh, what you would probably call lower end jobs, you know, the, um, um, um, the labouring type jobs, or maybe like, if in my side, probably the bookkeeper.
Uh, But professional services, um, you know, the, the accountant, the tax accountant and the auditor. Uh, I think they’re. They’re. The candidate is actually expecting you to come to them to a certain extent, and, uh, people aren’t looking as hard as what everybody seems to think the great resignation is [00:02:00] not really, really happening here in Australia.
People are moving, but it’s they need to be coaxed in order to move. Um, and the reason why people are moving now is that, uh, You know, salaries have increased slightly and people are saying, well, you know, you can move here for another 5, 000 dollars or another, another 10, 000 dollars. And then there, you know, there’s some extraordinary stories of, uh, you know, people getting double what they, you know, they were, uh, what they had, uh, what they’re previously on. Uh, but, but.
Seek, you know, If you put an advertisement in SEEK, um, you don’t normally get many responses as a recruiter, you know, um, 4, 5, 10 responses, um, of which 8, 8 of the 10 are probably from overseas. And don’t really, you know, And haven’t got, um, permanent residency or a visa that enables them to work here in Australia.
They’re just hopeful for sponsorship and you go, well you know, in this case, it’s they’re, they’re, they’re not, you know, not a, not a, uh, uh, a valid candidate at this point. So, you know, You feel that you’re wasting 300 dollars every time you, you advertise on a seat to, to a lot of extent. SEEK is good for a recruitment, um, uh, firm for publicity for their own personal publicity to actually put you out in the marketplace.
So, you know, any, Anybody who’s looking for a role goes, Oh, Barnaby recruitment. Oh, they, they do accounting roles, you know, but, um, you know, um, so I’ll go to Barnaby recruitment if I’m looking for something for a role, but it doesn’t. they don’t normally [00:03:00] respond too that much to Ads on SEEK. Right. So
John Downes: It sounds a bit like print advertising for real estate agents.
No one’s really looking at it, but at least give some profile. Exactly. Exactly. That’s what it does. Yeah. Yes. If I was looking for, uh, uh, an SME general manager or a senior manager sort of role, would that be more of a LinkedIn type thing or would that
John Cotton: Yes, it is. It’s LinkedIn, but it’s also connections that you’ve made and maintained over a number of years.
You know, you, you know, I seen a senior manager role. You’ll probably known that person since they were a senior accountant via three, four, five years experience. You know, now they’ve got. 8, 9, 10 years experience, and you’ve kept in contact with them for 3, 4, 5 years and they, you know, no. like, and trust you, so to speak.
You know, and, and they’re, they’re prepared to have a conversation with you. So
John Downes: The power of your network is absolutely golden. Is that right?
John Cotton: Yes, exactly. Yeah, You build it over time as a recruiter. Yeah, you do.
John Downes: Gotcha. All right. So, um, uh, let me just sort of take us a tad further. So, um, what’s the deal with.
With I decide, okay, I need to actually recruit a position. Um, I guess the question is, what do I need to, how do I, How do I go about that process? How do I, how do I fulfill a job spec, um, or even complete [00:04:00] one at this point? I think you sort of said, said the other day, it was a question around. Well, Do you even know what you actually want?
Well, that’s that’s true. You know, that’s from both sides. Um, you know,
John Cotton: From the actual employer side, do they know exactly what they want? and from the candidate side, do they know the type of job that they want? Uh, you know, when they’re when they’re presenting themselves, you know, they have to have some conviction about about the role that they’re going into.
Um, but yes, um, and sometimes, you know, As from a recruiter’s perspective, it is an iterative process that you go, you, the parameters start moving in, uh, from, um, as, as you, the job evolves with the client. Sometimes the client says, I want, I want a client, somebody to do this. And then, and then When they, you know, you come up with some, some, uh, candidates for them, they go, well, you know, really what I want is somebody who’s, you know, specifically, you know, international tax and, you know, and, uh, and, and nothing else to go, okay.
We’ll take out those and, you know, and, and focus on the international tax or whatever they’re specifically looking for. Yeah.
John Downes: Is it still a, uh, a, uh, a process of actually advertising on some, something like LinkedIn? Or is it actually using a recruiter to actually search?
John Cotton: Many organizations think they, you know, they can do it cheaply and, and go out and they’ll advertise on SEEK and then they’ll come back and say, I’m not having any, any, any responses at all.
I’m not having any success. You know, The [00:05:00] people who are responding are not very good. Can you help? Um, And all recruiters again, so they can. Um, so, um, we, and you go, you go looking and you go looking through your database of people, um, and you think, and you, and you make phone calls and you talk to people, you know, just have a conversation with, with people and say, find out whether they’re interested.
And from them, you may find out that they, they, but. they’re not interested, but they have a friend who might be interested, a colleague who’s thinking, you know, thinking and moving. Yeah.
John Downes: So using a recruiter actually engages an active, proactive search as opposed to, uh, hopefully resumes will flood through the door by some miracle.
John Cotton: Yes. And, and, you know, miracles are not happening very often. At this point, okay. So,
John Downes: So let’s say that you found us, I don’t know, half a dozen, a dozen candidates, or are you talking about two or three candidates? Uh,
John Cotton: We’re talking less than, I’d say less than less than five generally, you know, of people who are a genuine candidate.
Yeah.
John Downes: And so how do you start to sort of sort the wheat from the chaff? You know, as a candidate, how do I even, how do I even get looked at? I mean, you’re doing a search and making phone calls and you, and you’re touching into your, your network and your own databases, but then how do you even get found in your database or in LinkedIn?
How do you stand out? cause there’s got to be you know, thousands of candidates. Potential. Yeah,
John Cotton: It [00:06:00] goes back to that first point we said about keeping your LinkedIn profile up to date. If somebody is out there actively looking, then they should have their LinkedIn profile up to date with a title that is fairly generic.
You know, um, you know, senior accountant, um, senior analyst, you know, something like that, you know, if you don’t want something exotic, um, you know, analytical senior or something like that, you know, you may not be found. Um, you know, because A lot of the time you’re actually searching on title, um, years of experience, you know, that type of thing, you know, so, you know, have, have a title that, um, you know, that, uh, somebody understands.
Yeah, yeah. And
John Downes: So that at least gets you into the funnel, I guess.
John Cotton: Yes. Yes. Um, and then.
John Downes: If I’m a candidate, I’ve got to have a, uh, uh, complete, uh, LinkedIn profile. Yes, yeah. Got to be honest, but it’s also got to be specific. Yes, yes. Photographs are fairly important, I would have thought.
Good to know that you’ve actually got one. Yeah. Put,
John Cotton: Put a professional photograph on LinkedIn. It’s not, it’s not a, It’s not a Facebook page. Um, Don’t put, you know, a photo of you down, you know, surfing down at Torque, um, you know, put a, for the photo of you that, that, that the, the firm that you’re actually working for currently, we’d be proud to have.
On there, so, you know, um, so, you know, um, yeah, yeah, well, it’s different with a yard.
John Downes: A yard beer glass is probably. Yes, it’s not, uh, it’s
John Cotton: Not what’s going to go down. Yeah, like, you know, It may be 5 percent of the population who actually think that’s fantastic. Yeah, yeah, I want this guy [00:07:00] because you know, he’s, he’s my type.
But the other 95 percent are going, I think I’ll leave that one. Yeah, yeah,
John Downes: Fair enough. And then, Once we get to, Once we get sort of narrowed down to you, you found five candidates, um, and I tell you from there, then the next step really is interview. As you interview? Yes. Yes. What do I expect? And how do I handle it?
So what are you really looking for, John? Um,
John Cotton: You’re looking for somebody who’s going to stand out. Um, so if they’re standing out, is, is it, Why do you want this job? Where do you see your, you know, it’s, it’s like, how does this fit into your career? You know, your, you know, your expected career. Um, you know, it’s, um, you know, You, you, you want to actually, um, you know, uh, you wanna know that they know why they’re going for the job.
Um, you know, and, and, and it’s, uh, you know, Sometimes it, you know, that they, they don’t feel that their, their career is, uh, is moving. Well, Where they are so they, you know, are starting to look, um, you know, others, you know, um, oh, you know, just, uh, you know, you know, others may be just kicking tires and the ones who are just kicking tires.
You go, you know, you know, how are you gonna show the, a sense of conviction to the, the client when you actually get, get to meet the client? So
John Downes: What are the sorts of questions that you might actually go through with them? So, you know, Obviously, you know, why do you want the job? but what else would you be looking to ask?
Um,
John Cotton: It’s Something I asked more junior people, but actually probably, you know, occasionally asked the more senior ones is that people think when they’re going for the job, that’s all about them. Um, [00:08:00] You know, from an employer’s perspective, it’s, it’s. It’s all about the employer, you know, um, so, um, and you’ve, well, you’ve got to get into the head of the employer.
What you go, you go to the, um, go back to the very basics and you go, why does somebody employ somebody? You know, what are they trying to achieve? And when I asked that question, many candidates go straight to themselves and go, Oh, because I’ve got, you know, the right skills and things like that. No, no, no.
Why does somebody actually employ somebody? What are they actually trying to achieve? What’s the, what’s the business trying to achieve? What’s the, what’s the purpose of a business? And the purpose of the business is to make money and, and, and, and, um, once a candidate actually understands that their whole purpose of working for somebody is to help them make money.
Then They start to actually understand where they fit into the organization and how, and how they can best approach the, the, the client. When it comes to, um, uh, professional practices, it’s easy to show how you’re making money for an organization. You know, You have a charge out rate. You know, you get, you got a charge at rate of 150 per hour, which get 150 is charged to the client for every hour of work. That you do for that client.
Now, you say to a candidate, how much of that goes to pay you? And they go, you know, you get various answers go from, you know, 50%. I’ve actually had somebody say a hundred percent, you know, I think we’ll, you know, um, and I said, look, no, there’s a [00:09:00] formula within professional practice. And it’s this formula is Essentially a third, a third, a third.
Right now, One third actually goes to pay you. So if you’re getting on 150, it charge at rates, 150 an hour, one third of that will go to pay your salary. It was Approximately 50 per hour. The second third goes to pay for the overheads of the business, you know, the lease on the, the, on the, on the building and, you know, the, your computers, you know, the, you know, just, you know, maintaining the business, keeping the business running.
And I didn’t say to them, where does the other third go? And then they go, Oh, that goes to the owners of the business. And I go, yes, that’s the reason you’re being employed. You know, They have work that needs to be done and they engage you to do it and they take one third of whatever they charge the client.
It goes into the pot to pay the partners and you go, Ah, I’m here to put some money in the pot for the partners. Right. And If you realize that Then, you know, you, you start to actually get into the head of the partners when you’re, especially if you can say it in, in an interview, if you’re in an interview and you can let them know, I’m here, I know I’m here [00:10:00] to help you make money.
So I need to be productive. All right. I need to be charging my time out to, to a client. And if they hear those types of words, they go, Ooh, we’ve got somebody here who actually knows, you know, why they’re working for us. Um, so, you know, that, that’s, um, you know, That makes it interesting for the, it’s probably one of the most potent things a candidate can do is, um, with, uh, when, um, engaging with a client is to let them know that they know the reason for being there.
John Downes: What else should I, uh, a candidate do to, to stand out? Well, if you, you, you,
John Cotton: If you’re, uh, being interviewed, you. you ought to know what the business does. Now let’s, Let’s start with the first one. Let’s, let’s Have the technical skills to actually do the job. You know, you go, It’s like, yeah, it’s the Einstein thing about, uh, you know, um, you know, if a fish is judged by how well it can climb a tree, it’s going to be, you know, Um, poorly thought, thought as being, you know, not very smart.
Um, uh, it it, you, you know, If somebody says you need, if this is a role for, for somebody who’s got the tax skills and they, and, and, uh, you know, requirement of division seven A is re you know, is, is, uh, is required. Um, And they don’t know what Division seven A. Then, um, you know, I’ve got some [00:11:00] issues, right? So, you know, if, especially if the job speckle the, you know, the, the, you know, the advertisement or something says no, after no division seven A you know, you know, in your preparation for looking for the, for the job, uh, you know, you’ve got in going for the interview, make sure you know what division seven A is, make sure you know the technical things that the client that’s going to be doing.
Um, Looking for also understand what the business does, you know, you may, you know, we’re talking professional practices. So it’s, you know, it’s, um, in general terms, It’s fairly easy to actually know what they’re doing, but what type of clients and industries that they focus on. You know, uh, you know, Do they focus money alone?
Retail, the financial services that I find, you know, is it manufacturing? what is it that, uh, that, that, that business focuses on and what, and then, you know, who are their competitors, you know, who are the competitors to, to the, you know, the accounting firm, you know, um, who do they, they, they peers and who did they actually, you know, look up to.
Um, uh, you know, and that, That applies probably more so when you’re out in the industry, you know, you could be, you know, you, you could be, um, you know, going for work at a widget manufacturer widgets. and you go, well, who else makes widgets out there? You know, and how do they do it and understand the competitors.
So what you’re really doing here is actually letting them know you have some knowledge of the industry and and that you know that you’re not coming in green to the organization. [00:12:00] That’s the main thing. Yeah, actually, just just on that. Um, One thing that, um, a lot of auditors, you know, um, you know, work for the big four, you’ve got three years experience, maybe a little bit more, and, and they want to go out into industry as a financial account or something like that.
Um, it’s, It used to be a rite of passage back in our day. It was like, you know, You get the three, three or four years, or, you know, you go, well, you know, I want to go out in the industry and I would say, come on down, you know, we, you know, um, you know, we’ll, we’ll show you how to do it. Now, um, There’s less investment in somebody who’s, who’s joining an organization.
They expect you to be, you know, be able to running as you come through the door, you know, you know, you know exactly what you’re going to do. So, you know, say auditors now when they actually looking for a role in industry. They should be, you know, trying to focus on two areas. One is, have they done the work in their order, in their order work?
Have they had a secondment of some sort, you know, to a client for financial, uh, accounting or have they, uh, you know, in their work specifically focused on monthly reporting or whatever, you know, ever, you know, as opposed to just, just checking, Yeah, you know, the work isn’t as an auditor. Um, so and so, you know, so there’s that’s that’s one route.
So, you know, make, Be able to show the client, um, that you actually have experience or actually know what you, what you’re doing, because very often they, uh, you know, they say to an auditor, you know, um, have you done the work? and they go, Oh yeah, like, you know, I’m an auditor. I’ve, you know, I’ve been auditing these accounts for a number of [00:13:00] years.
No, no. Have you actually done the work as in. the monthly reporting or whatever. Uh, so they, they want to see an example of how you can transition very quickly. The other one is to actually have some experience in that industry. Uh, you know, it could be that you get If you’re an auditor and you want to work in the retail industry.
As a financial accountant clients in your try and work on clients in your, your firm that focus on retail clients, you know, and so you can actually go to the, the, the client and say, look, I’ve got experience in retail. Yeah. I think
John Downes: You mentioned last time that, you know, sometimes the story of a candidate is actually in the movements.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, yeah, it’s. You know, you go, um, you know,
John Cotton: I was working at such and such a place and, you know, and I was, you know, I was enjoying what I was doing and I was, you know, getting good experience there. And Then I got a phone call from a recruiter who said, you know, I, you know, I need somebody who can do this, this and this at another organization.
Right. And you go, Hmm, that was interesting, you know, and that, and that was, that was the impetus for me to move, or it could be that, you know, you know, that, um, that, uh, you come to an end of what you would, you know, what you were doing at that client. Uh, and it’s like, you know, you come to a bit of it And you realize that was, you know, um, you know, in order for you to grow, you know, you completed the assignment, you know, you, you know, the, the, the project is not going to go any further, you’re going to head off to it, you need to go somewhere else. But It’s the skills you learn in those in what you’re doing that you can, you know, specific, you know, you can say, you know, I was working on retail clients and they have this specific, uh, you know, um, uh, yeah, um, uh, way of doing [00:14:00] things.
And I know how to do this year, which makes me right to do this job with you. And so it’s, it’s in the, in The movements, they are the reasons for you to move or the skills that you’ve actually gained that make you attractive to the next role. Yeah. And, and actually haven’t reviewed in the, uh, in the last couple of days actually put out a, uh, An article which says, um, yeah, “Your career is no longer a straight line.
Yeah, it’s, it’s, It’s a squiggling line.” And, uh, I think From my own career, I’ve actually, uh, there, there are times when, uh, I’ve gone for a role and one, one organization says, no, no, no, like, you know, you don’t have specific, you don’t have the specific experience we want, we’re wanting there or something like that.
and you go somewhere else and they go, Oh, we really appreciate your depth of experience because you’ve done a number of different things. You know, and you think horses for courses, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Yeah.
John Downes: And I guess the, um, the question around why you left any particular role, so, so there’s a couple of good ones there, but I guess there’s also the, you know, that issue of gaps in the, in the story.
Yeah, yeah. And how does a, how does a candidate handle the gaps? Because, you know, I guess, you know, this week we’ve celebrated International Women’s Day. Regardless of whether a candidate’s male or female, they might. Maternity slash paternity or parental leave experience, which could be anywhere from three months to 10 years.
Yeah.
John Cotton: Yeah.
John Downes: How do you handle something like that? Um,
John Cotton: [00:15:00] Well, one. You know, explain it as it is, you know, tell the truth, um, you know, so, you know, maternity or paternity is, is a good one to be able to explain. Um, but, um, what you’ve also got to be able to say is, you know, okay, I was off for six months because, uh, you know, my son was born and I, you know, and I was, you know, Um, you know, was stayed home with my son and looked after him.
Um, uh, But during that time I kept up to date with what was going on in the industry by going, you know, by going online and doing such and such courses and things like that, you know, indicate that you’ve, you know, you’ve, you’ve maintained a, uh, you know, uh, you know, a finger in the pie, so to speak, you know, you know, you know, what’s going on, you know, you’ve got to indicate that you haven’t let your skills, skills dwindle.
Yep, yep.
John Downes: Particularly with, with younger candidates, there’s also the whole gap year or the, well, not the last two years, uh, but, but certainly in, uh, at some point, the opportunity to actually go and travel overseas or backpack or do something again, how do, how do I maximize what that looks like?
John Cotton: You’ve got to think in terms of what experiences did you gain when you, when you’re away?
As well, you know, you know, just just that the ability to, um, communicate with other people in foreign circumstances is a fantastic skill for, for, for any, um, professional going forward, you know, when they get into a new role, you know, that, that ability to pick up the telephone, that ability to go and talk to somebody and feel comfortable in the process, that’s the skill that you gain when you’re traveling.
Um, you know, Let people know that you’ve gained [00:16:00] skills, you know, don’t, you know, don’t say, look, I just said, you know, I just, I do the contiki tour around Europe and, uh, you know, I know where all the, the, the, the main tourist sites are and the, and the, and there’s a, you know, there’s, you know, there’s Australian pub in, in, in Paris and in, and in Rome as well.
And we spend a lot of time in those. That doesn’t go down so well, you know, You actually have some purpose with what you’re doing.

John Downes: And be able to talk to it, I guess. There wasn’t enough as if it was completely. Yeah. Um, the, um. So, you know, it’s been a while since I’ve gone through a, through an interview, um, for, for a job, uh, as opposed to working with clients on projects, um, is it a one way, um, shooting match?
John Cotton: No, it’s a dialogue, you know, a bit like a conversation we’re having now is really, you know, but, uh, in interview. Um, and I think you’re, um, one of the things that I had a candidate once who, um, uh, you know, was going for a role and then we’re doing a bit of a briefing as to, you know, how to, how to, how to handle the interview.
And I said to her, ask him about himself. And she goes, can I do that? I said, yeah, sure. You know, I, you know, ask him about himself as to how he’s got to where he is and what, what, you know, what he likes about his job, you know, how, how, you know, what he’s done that’s, you know, that’s, you know, made him successful.
And she goes, Oh, okay. I said, like, you know, the example, I said, [00:17:00] the guys you go out on a date with. Which ones do you enjoy going with? enjoy being with most the ones that talk the whole night about themselves or the ones that ask you about you kind of like the penny dropped. I was like, okay. Um, and yet, um, she, She, you know, took on board what I had to say and, um, he got the job.
Perfect. Yeah. But the, but the thing is, it’s asking, you know, people want to, People are very happy about sharing. Um, you know, it’s like, you know, We’re probably here at that age where we’re happy to actually, um, uh, you know, share our wisdom and share some knowledge that we’ve actually gained over the years, uh, which, um, you know, is, um, people should realize that they can ask people about, um, uh, you know, what, what, uh, what they’ve done, you know, what’s their background because people do like talking about themselves.
So, uh, yeah, I think, I think that’s, that’s important. So,
John Downes: Anything else that we should, um, highlight for candidates in being successful in this process? Should they actually ask, okay, how much money am I going to earn? And, and when’s my next promotion likely to be, or? Um,
John Cotton: That’s generally second interview.
First interview is getting to know you. And, uh, um, Second interview, uh, Yeah, they will, if they’re interested in you, money will come up at some point, as in, um, you know, they’ll start asking about what, what, what’s your current salary, you know, um, you know, [00:18:00] or, um, what are you looking for now, you know, when you’re going forward.
John Downes: So you may ask what I’m earning now? Yeah, they can, they ask, yeah, very often they
John Cotton: Ask that, yeah, um, yeah. That’s what they what they do. And, uh, you know, in the past, this is why people weren’t moving in the past. In the past, it was like, um, you know, what are you currently on? I’m on the 65 package. Oh, good.
Would you take 65? Why move? You know, and businesses are going, you know, we are, um, businesses wondering why they, you know, people weren’t moving, um, you know, people have to have an incentive, especially in professional practice where, you know, you’re doing the same, you know, you’re, you’re doing. Yeah, they’re doing if you’re moving to do the same thing in a different environment, and they want you to do it for the same price. You know,
John Downes: Yeah, and, um, uh, so you’re saying much in the way of innovative packaging.
Uh, you know, I think, uh,
John Cotton: FBT got rid of that years ago innovative packaging. Um, you know, you old, um, you know, You can have a car, you, when your, you know, tax, tax, uh, benefits and things like that. Um, you know, look organizations, uh, uh, well, I suppose innovative packaging is now you, you know, working from home.
Um, you know, as in, uh, we now have, We have the technology that enables you to work, work from home, which everybody’s found out that they, they do have it, uh, with, uh, you know, COVID. Um, So, but, uh, the package is that, um, you know, we’d like you in the office, um, you know, three days a week, but you can, you know, you can, you can decide what you do with the other two days.
Yeah, something, someone, something along those lines. I’ve heard, um, uh, what’s it three, two, one. Something said, you know, like three days in the week, two days at home and one day that you had, there was, it was a fixed day that you had to be in the [00:19:00] office. Like everybody had to be there on Monday or something like that, you know?
Yeah. That was like,
John Downes: We do a town hall meetings.
John Cotton: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, The important thing is, you know, is selling yourself. Um, you know, don’t tell any lies, but say, you know, I’ve done this, this, and this, and this, you know, and by the way, I’ve also done this. And I go, Oh, okay. That, you know, just be prepared to actually, um, let them know how good you are, don’t assume that they understand that you know something because you, you know, you’ve actually done something else.
Um, and it’s a bit, a bit like the, you know, we’re saying in LinkedIn, be quite verbose about what you’ve done on LinkedIn and, and with a CV as well. Be very full about what you write about what you’ve done on, on LinkedIn, because. On your CV, because you, um, the, the, the, um, the client can’t, um, uh, interpret, you know, um, what, what you’ve done, you know, sometimes people say, oh, you know, I should have a CV that actually is, it covers only one page.
Well, maybe If you want to do a summary CV, fantastic, but also do a very full one as well, you know, that has everything in there. And that’s, um, something that, okay, the recruiters should, should be able to, to bring out a bit when, uh, when talking with somebody, you know, and bring out certain things. But if you’ve done, done things that are a little bit different, Um, yeah, explain what you’ve done because those, those things that are a little, a little bit different could be the key to, um, to you getting the next role.
John Downes: So just on that, John, so LinkedIn’s got this [00:20:00] function, you know, print the summary, which basically is looks like this. Um, Should candidates just rely on that or should they actually. I’m Do something that looks a bit more professional, or a little less. Very important, very important. You know,
John Cotton: I’ve actually interviewed people purely because I thought, gee, you have done a fantastic cover letter.
You know, you may not have all that, you know, all the skills I’m looking for, but. Gee, you’ve, you know, you, you’ve really put together a very professional looking cover letter, which actually was addressed properly. And it was, you know, and it was, uh, The salutation was, you know, was, was right. And, you know, and there was a, a reference to what they’re looking for.
And the cover letter actually specifically addressed the actual job that they, you know, that they’re, they’re applying for. Um, and you know, you go. This is fantastic, you know, and you can sometimes reject people because of a poor cover letter, as in dear sir, madam, with regards to the job you advertised. I think I’m a pretty good candidate.
Please see my CV. And it’s like, and there’s, and there’s, there’s no professionalism about it at all. And you go, Are you going to translate what you’ve just done here presenting to me what into the business that you’re going to work [00:21:00] at. Yeah, It doesn’t go down too well. Yeah.
John Downes: Second question that sort of just popped up was, you know, I was, I was listening to a, um, an interview with Simon Sinek the other day and he was talking about millennials.
Sure, sure. So, young candidates, um, and, and I’m not picking on a whole cohort, but, Hmm. But, um, the, the, I don’t know, the 20 to 30 year olds are a multi screen generation. They’re very tech savvy, very text savvy. Um, uh, uh, YouTube, TikTok. Yeah, Competent, um, uh, or descendants is probably another way to put it.
What advice would you give to millennials going into an interview? Um, you know, some of my clients talk about the, the challenges of getting, um, young people in that age group to pick up the phone and speak to another person and be much preferred to actually send an email or send a text. Or whatever.
Yeah, I sleep around that. Uh, yeah.
John Cotton: Do they want the job? It’s like, you know, it’s like, like, like, like, I’ll give you trying to relate it with a little bit of my own experience. All right. I was with KPMG in London when we invented risk management as a service offering. Right? And then that was back In 1997
and for the next three years, we, we, we, you know, the process became, you know, um, we iterated the process and, and, and it ended up becoming risk based internal auditing. Right? So I was there right at the very beginning of risk [00:22:00] management and internal, um, and risk based internal auditing. I came back to Australia after having worked in over 30 countries and spending 18, 19 years overseas were based in London and Australia said, but you haven’t done it here, you know, didn’t do it in Australia, you know, so how relevant is what you’ve done, you know, so the guy invented what you’re doing here, but anyway, um, so, and, and then I went to, uh, for a role and they said, but are you a member of the Institute of internal auditors?
And I go, but I’m a child accountant. Why do I need to be a member of the Institute of Internal Auditors? Right. And then it was like, have you done CIA, which is a certified internal auditory examination, which is an international accredited, you know, um, uh, qualification. Uh, but I said, but I’m a childhood accountant.
Why do I need to be, you know, a member of that? Because In London, I’d never, never once was my Australian qualification queried. So it was, you know, it was. Yeah, It was regarded as being pretty good. So, um, anyway, I realized that Australians are very, you know, um, they’re, uh, concerned about anything that happens overseas and also, um, what things to be.
The way they want it, they want to see a qualification. So I went out and joined the memory Institute of internal orders and became a CIA just to actually, um, comply with Australia because I knew I couldn’t bend Australia. I had to [00:23:00] bend to Australia. All right. Now the millennials, you’re going for a job and they want the job and they say, well, you know, I want it my way.
No, we went back to the very beginning. I says, you know, what’s the reason somebody employs somebody It’s all about the employer. The employer wants to make money. You know, It’s not about because you have it, you’ve been to university and you’ve got a degree that you’re entitled to a job. It’s how can you actually help the business generate money?
Now, I actually say the millennials is learn how to pick up the phone. You know, You’re going to have to do it when you’re, when you’re in the office and working with somebody. Yeah, Learn how to pick up the phone, learn how to walk to somebody else’s office and never talk to him instead of actually, you know, sending it, sending a message, you know, when the office is two doors down, you learn those skills, it’s important that, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re part of the process of being in business.
Learn them. You’re going to have to do them sooner or later. So The sooner you do them, um, the better. Nice one. Yeah, but you got it. But The important thing is it’s the employer is where the [00:24:00] focus is. It’s not the actual candidate. You know, um, you know, You’ve got to realize you’re there to actually fulfill what the employer wants, not what you want.
John Downes: Whether the great resignation or migration is I certainly know that a lot of clients, uh, recruiting at the moment, um, and, and they’re, they’re finding that there are a lot of candidates out there with, with fairly high expectations, um, as a, as a, a recruiter or the employer wanting to, um, select and, and, and encourage someone to take a, take a role apart from money.
What else can you do? I mean, as, as the interviewer, um, how do you set yourself apart from the other interviewers that no doubt the candidate, I mean, good candidates will no doubt be, uh, being targeted by multiple roles. Um, you know,
John Cotton: People talk about culture, um, uh, is, you know, um, and. that’s not something that you can actually say, Oh, yeah, we have a great culture, you know, um, it that’s, uh, that’s something that has to have been there over [00:25:00] time that the candidate.
Really knows, you know, if somebody, if somebody was to say, we have a great culture, but then the candidate knows, you know, that there’s been five people who’s left in the last, you know, uh, you know, six months because of one particular, you know, senior manager or one particular partner or something like that, who’s, you know, made things difficult.
Um, you know, Yeah, to the candidate, you have a great, great culture is going to, um, fall on cold, you know, cold is, yeah, like it is, um, the environment, you know, where you work, uh, who are the people you’re going to work for? Actually, that’s probably the most important thing is, is the people you’re going to work with.
Is The most important thing about any career, uh, is, is that, um, you know, it’s better to have a job where you’re working with good people, but less pay than it is to work with people who. A toxic and, uh, and they’re paying you more money. And so
John Downes: As a candidate, how, how do I discover that? Um, into the ground, certain, you know,
John Cotton: A lot of the time as a, as a candidate, you, you know, you, you, you know, you’re going to actually do some due diligence on the organization that you’re going to work for, you know, know about the organization that you’re going to work for.
It’s a bit like, you know, we’re talking earlier about, you know, um, what does the business do? You know, what, um, Um, what, what do you know about that business? Uh, where I’m in the industry, I mean, I’m fairly fortunate, you know, the, the, the major accounting firms, you know, they’re fairly generic. Um, uh, you know, it, It does come down to, you know, personalities and [00:26:00] organizations.
Yeah. And, And when, as a candidate, you’re, you’re linked in with other people as well. And You find out who else is at the same organization. You can always. Uh, Call them up and say, um, you’re at that organization. What’s it like to work there? Or you could call up somebody who has left that organization and say, well, what would they like to work for?
Why did you leave? So, so
John Downes: It’s actually important for the candidate to actually do their own due diligence and and I guess also at interview, there’s, there’s probably also the opportunity for them to, to actually ask if they could meet some of the team. Well,
John Cotton: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s true. They, they can, they can do that.
But actually, you know, when we were talking about, uh, you know, ask the people about them, you know, ask the interview about them themselves. Um, That’s a good way of actually finding out what the organization’s like as well. Because if, if the, if the, what happens is You can ask the, the interviewer, um, um, what’s your background?
How did you get to this job? Why did you choose this firm? And. You know, if you go to the interviewer who goes, well, you know, like my background, this, this, and this, and I came here because of, you know, and they explained, you know, why, what, what’s good about the firm or you get said the interviewer [00:27:00] goes, well, you know, I went for the job.
They offered it to me and I said, yes, you know, um, you know, you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you don’t get great enthusiasm for the organization. So that’s part of your due diligence processes. Even during the interview, you know, asking, asking the person who, why did they, why did they join the firm? Yeah.
John Downes: Yeah. Brilliant. John, look, that’s really helpful. So On a slightly different bent.
John Cotton: Um,
John Downes: There’s no question that the recruitment process is. Involved of something that you just as a, uh, general manager or a senior manager or a CEO, um, you know, carve out an afternoon and just, um, knock through a few candidates and, and Bob’s your uncle, we’ve, we’ve got new, uh, employees on Monday is how do I engage a recruiter and choose one?
And secondly, how do I be a good client? Of the recruiter. Let’s start with that. Okay. So How do I go about engaging a recruiter? What should I expect if I’ve never used a recruiter before? You know, how, why, what? Um, I’ll give you the reasons why, um, why I think I’m a little different from others. I suppose that might be it.
Okay. Yeah.
John Cotton: Many recruiters are transactional as in. [00:28:00] it’s a sales job there. they are under pressure from within their own organization to actually get, um, placements, which means money is coming in for the for the recruiter and it becomes so it each. Job comes up. It’s a transaction. You know, I can, you know, if I, I just, I’ll throw five candidates at the, at, at the, the client, see whether the, you know, they, they, they like those candidates, um, and, uh, you know, and hopefully they’ll say yes to one of them.
Um, Whereas, uh, I, I try to consultative approach as in, um, you know, what, what are you looking for? Um, you know, you know, what don’t you want? Um, you know, and try and actually, um, provide them with candidates that are actually more related to their specific needs. You know, what, What’s the actual issue they’re trying to solve, you know, do the, do the candidates have those, the skills that they’re looking for, you know, sometimes, sometimes you, you get to understand the personality of an organization.
You know, there are, There are some organizations that you know, that you, you go, this type of candidate will be better for that than, than [00:29:00] another type of candidate, you know, there are, there are some organizations when it comes to the accounting profession that are fairly outgoing, they’re, they’re, they’re, you know, they’re advisory focused.
And, you know, they’re, They’re really, um, you know, want somebody who’s got a little bit of more personality and wants to actually go, you know, be right in the face of the, of the client others. Uh, Just need somebody who sits in the corner and does the, you know, and does the work, you know, um, and there, you know, again, courses and courses.
So, um, you know, you, you’ve got to actually understand, you get a feel and understanding for the client before you can actually, um, you know, um, provide them with the right candidate. And so then to the second part of that, um, you know, um,
John Downes: A good outcome is the result of both Uh, a good client and a good service provider has been my experience in really everything.
Um, you know, if you, If you both, uh, doing the right thing by each other, then the outcome usually is, is, is really good. So what do I need to do to be a good client? of a professional recruiter. Um, uh,
John Cotton: Yeah, know what you want, uh, and be, and, uh, be prepared to articulate it, you know, say, you know, um, it can be an annoying when you actually provide exactly the, you know, the, uh, the, the, what the client specifies that they want.
And then they go on, uh, like, you know, I really don’t want that. But, but, but, But that’s part [00:30:00] of the process to a certain extent. In the in that again, We mentioned about the parameters coming in, you know, um, the client will say they want a certain thing and then realize but we want to skew it this way.
You know, That’s where we’re actually more inclined with somebody who’s got these skills as opposed to having all the skills or. That way, you know, so, um, you know, sometimes it’s, uh, it’s a process of being patient and actually, um, um, providing the client with, with options and they essentially, you know, say, not that one, not that one, but, you know, can we have a couple more down this path?
Yeah. Good point.
John Downes: Excellent, John. Look, thank you very much. That was a really good deep dive into this recruitment process, how to be an outstanding candidate, what the businesses are looking for, um, what the candidates should be considering when they’re trying to, uh, be relevant. To, uh, future employers, how to be found, how to be attractive, um, and also what their rights are to actually conduct their own due diligence, which is only part of figuring out who they’re actually being interviewed by, but also engaging with the interviewer in a way that the interviewer might find pretty engaging themselves.
They come out of [00:31:00] this process with a smile on their face. You’ve Got a better than average chance. Yes. And that’s, that’s a, uh, uh, an outstanding thing. John, thank you so much for your time on this today. It’s been really excellent.
John Cotton: Oh, it’s been a pleasure, John. Thank you very much.
John Downes: You’re welcome.
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