(EP 26) Joe Ciancio (Regional Tech Founder): The Unexpected Growth that came from Coaching and Peer Support

Welcome to the critical few actions to improve your business podcast. I’m John Downes and I’m here to help you cut through the overwhelm and prioritize what matters most to improve your business. Let’s get started and discover the critical few actions that have the biggest impact.

Joe Ciancio started his business in his parents garage and now employs 30 staff in Bendigo, regional Victoria. He helps clients across Australia to define, establish, and maintain their IT infrastructure. Joe, welcome.

Thank you very much, John. So Joe, tell me your story. How’d you get into IT in the first place? Was it a passion when you were a kid?

Absolutely. John. I always remember loving to see how things work pulling things apart, trying to put them back together and understand how they tick inside. My dad was a fitter and turner by trade. In his shed he had bits and pieces of old machines and I’d always love to see how they went together and I’d always be building things.

But my passion was always with, electrical things, electronic things, and computers. Back in the early eighties when I was running around at school, computers were just a new thing and they amazed me from the very first time I saw them.

So how’d you take that from there into your studies?

I remember seeing my first computer when I was at school and just, like I said before, just being so enthralled by them. I got my first computer, a Commodore 64, I saved up my 275 dollars, went to Brashers and bought that computer. I used to write, it came with a manual, it came with a manual that, explain how to program and, I read that thing on my own and learned to do some programming and I just always knew I was 10, 12 years old, something like that.

I knew that I wanted to start my own computer business through high school, I did the math science subjects. I went on to do electrical engineering and computer science at university. I also studied languages, so I studied Japanese through that, entire time.

All right.

That is something I always tell anyone that’ll listen.

Always learn the language because it can be really helpful. And certainly it was in my career. I continue studying Japanese all through university, and in the final year of my computer science degree, I got a scholarship through the Japanese,arts department at university to study at the Tokyo Institute of Technology in Japan.

Fantastic.

I went there, my 10 years of Japanese studies still hadn’t prepared me for, being thrown in the deep end but it was a great experience. The biggest thing was that I was, studying and one sunday morning, one of my Australian friends that I’d made in Japan said, Oh, we’re going to this job fair.

Do you want to come? I think we’d been out the night before and we’re still a bit bleary eyed, but decided to go to this job fair thing. And the last stand that I, around, the people that were really interested in what I was doing. And they said, Would you be interested in coming for an interview for some part time work? I said, yes, I went to the interview and they offered me a job. That was an American companywith a Japan office, so I got a part time job there. It was the semiconductor manufacturer.

Yeah.

That makes chip that goes into a lot of devices. and I worked there part time for the year.

When I graduated at the end of that year, which was in 1996, they offered me a full time role. So I ended up. for another six years working. Eventually I was in a global role in technical marketing, new product design, working for a really big, international company, that gave me exposure to a whole bunch of things.

The end of that time in 2001, the head office wanted me to move to the U S. to take up a full time role there.

Yeah.

By that stage I’d been away for so long and I thought, no, I’m going to come back to Australia. The industry that I’d been working in therefor six years, doesn’t exist in Australia at all. Australia has no semiconductor

capacity. Thinking back to when I was a kid, I want to always start my own computer company. So that’s what I did.

So how’d you go about it? Because so many people, think about having their own business at some point and then life takes over and they get jobs and go on. So how’d you go about setting up a business and did you have any help?

I grew up from the age of 10. my sister and I grew up in my parents business. My parents had a Dahlia cafe. We were there before school after school. Holidays, weekends, the whole bit.

Yeah.

When you’re exposed to that environment from a young age, it’s something that you absorb by osmosis.

It was never a thing where I thought, what do I have to do to, start a business or what aspects do I need to consider? It was like, I know I need suppliers. I know I need to,have customers I know I need to have good customer service. The finance part, my sister and I were always doing the books after end of each day.

So came a bit naturally. I’d never studied any finance or business management or anything like that at school. It wasn’t a conscious choice to say, okay, I need to do X, Y, Z, it just all happened.

And how’d you find your first client? Well, I think everyone finally works it out at some point, but sometimes it’s who, you know.

Yeah.

I drew upon my family been in business for many years, and drew on the networks that we’d built through the business.

Yeah.

A friend of dad’s who had a, agribusiness, in central Victoria, they, they were growing, they had some bad experiences for, with some other, local provider and, the boss there, a guy by the name of Neil Clark, sadly has passed away recently. He. was good enough to put trust in me and give me my first real break. And so from there, just snowballed word of mouth, talking to other people.

But I guess it must’ve been quite a change for you because working for a Japanese semiconductor business in a global, sales and marketing role and business development and product development role doesn’t equal, Joe, the IT infrastructure dude. So how did you do that transition?

I always loved computers. I did a little bit of basic programming and I’d use computers for my other role, but I’d never done any system administration work. I’d basically never built a computer until the year before. Back then, the internet was just starting to emerge as a useful resource, but it was books. Remember buying a lot of books. And the other thing is that I am always, been able to, draw on other people to get assistance. I might not know it, but I always seem to know people or find people who knew it and could assist in that way.

So that was how many years ago now?

2001

Now you’re 22 years old.

We had our 21st last year.

What have been some of the stuff ups along the way and what have you learned from them?

One is that you can’t do it all yourself.

Yeah.

There’s a lot of technical things that I learned along the way. I did things a hard way a lot of the times just because you don’t know, You just pick up on a solution without understanding that there could have been simpler ways. As we got busier, one of the first things I learned is that you really need and it’s not something that I didn’t know. When you’re focusing on technical stuff for so long, your eye can be taken off the ball. One of the things I had to refocus on was a concerted effort on customer service. In retail where I grew up, that’s king, but when you’re stuck in a business doing technical stuff, it’s easy to get drawn into that and take your eye off the ball.

Even though it’s a technical business, you’re still dealing with people. Absolutely. Customer service is really king. That’s a really big thing. And, made some mistakes with that, early on. I think the other thing is that, you have to know, and certainly made mistakes in the early days as well. You have to understand that there’s things you don’t know.

Yeah.

Unconsciously incompetent is one of those traps that a lot of, startups and entrepreneurs fall into at the start where, you just can’t see the blind spots. When I moved from being unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent, that’s when things started to change.

Look, I think all of us regardless of the walk of life, go through that as part of the maturation process. Another description, I guess it’s a school had knocks. If you can figure out what caused the hard knock in the first place, it’s really cool.

Absolutely.

And so what were some of the game changes that really changed your business for the better? Because you’ve now got 30 odd people. you’re providing services to businesses that are not just in your local area, obviously, but actually all over Australia.

We’ve got clients all over the state and several across the country.

Yeah, I guess some of the game changers were, the real, crunch point came when, I started off working on my own. I was working on my own for a couple of years.

I hired a staff member. that was a really big game changer. It was a point that I agonized over, as a sole operator, you’re making all the money, but you’re sharing all the heartache as well.

I agonized over for ages, I spoke to a lot of people. I remember talking to my uncle, who’s an accountant and, he encouraged me. There’s a funny story. I interviewed this guy. He was referred to me by someone I knew. He interviewed really well, really smart guy. So he was gonna start, on a Monday morning at, eight thirty.

We had arranged. I got in earlier that morning. I thought, on his first day he’s probably gonna be here a little bit earlier, so I’ll get here extra early. Anyway, it got to a quarter past eight. He wasn’t there, I said, oh, thought, okay, he’s gonna arrive at eight thirty it was a quarter past eight, still wasn’t there. I thought, maybe he got it mixed up and thought he was starting at nine, he still wasn’t there.

I call his mobile and, he answered and he was still in bed.

And I thought, oh no, what have I done?

Anyway, he rocked up at about a quarter to 10.

All good.

You’re in two minds, like, should I even continue with this guy or not, but I’m so glad that I did. he was such a smart guy.

I remember that later that day, we were in our office, his desk was across from mine. he took the first call that came in and solved the problem for this client. I still can feel this. It was, it really was like a weight having been lifted off my shoulders.

Wow.

That I had someone to help me.

Yeah.

That was a great, experience and obviously would never have grind if I hadn’t employed someone like that.

Yeah.

Think that was the really big thing. and then, as we employed more people, got busier, more successful, every business goes through that. I think you probably know better than me. John, the sigmoid curve.

Yeah.

The business was growing really great and then started plateauing you get to this point of inflection where things can either keep going or get better, they can plateau they can start to drop off and I could just feel the business starting to drop off because we had, a couple of new competitors in town that were doing things differently

Their contract structures were different. And all of a sudden we started losing clients, coming up to new business and not winning it. A couple of staff members had left to go to this competitor. I still remember, being at the office at eight o’clock one night, still hadn’t gone home to see the kids. I was sitting there with my head in my hands thinking, what the hell am I doing wrong?

Yeah.

And I just knew that I needed to do something different and that I needed to get help. And that’s when I did two things that really changed the business. First is that I joined a peer group.

Right.

That was a massive game changer.

Yeah.

It’s a group of up to 12 different companies in a group. We all share our financials in the same platform and we can benchmark each other.

Yeah.

Terms of financial success. We have, business plans and other things. That are presented in the same format. So it’s about benchmarking, but also, it’s about helping each other.

Yeah.

Helping each other grow. it was amazing. I remember in the first, at the end of the first meeting. So this, if there’s three days of meetings that you sit in together and the end of that first week of meetings, those first three days, I literally couldn’t calm down for a week because I had all this information going around. It was so amazing to hear these other people speak and to hear that they had similar issues to me.

Yes.

I’ve been in that group now coming up to 11 years and that’s been invaluable. The other really big game changer was. As a result of being in that peer group, the founder Arlen Sorenson, I remember him presenting to us one day saying you’ve got to get a coach. I had always been really skeptical of coaching thinking, it’s just a lot of BS and it’s smoke and mirrors. But, thing that I learned is that, I guess he, he put it in context in saying, I’m not a big sports fanatic or follow sport in any way, but he put it in the context of sport, right? What football team, cricket team, soccer team. could win any game without having a coach. You need a captain, but also a coach. I started looking for a coach and interviewed a couple of people. And the thing for me is that person that I started working with, just felt a connection to him. And as soon as I, could feel that I thought, yeah, this is the right guy to help me. that was another really, game changing, point for us in the business. I think the most recent thing, is and just tying it back to coaching. our coach really helped us with certain point in time issues that we were going.

Yeah.

Putting together a business plan some HR issues go to market strategies defining our mission, defining our vision, defining our cultural values, all really big things. but then beyond that. got to the point, okay, this is really good, but what we were missing was a framework to help execute all of that on a consistent basis.

Yes.

The really big thing that we’ve done most recently that’s changed our business is implementing, EOS, that entrepreneurial operating system. And that in the last three and a half, four years has transformed our business.

Yeah. Great system. before we get into that, I’d like to dig into that a bit more, just thinking about your coach, are you still with the same coach or have you had a couple of coaches?

I’ve only ever had the one, and I consider him a really good friend.

Yes.

And we still catch up with him for coffee and things like that. but we only really engage with him now when we’ve got a really specific.

Issue.

Issue that we need to work through. But in addition to the frameworks that he’s brought in and you’ve applied, vision, mission, goals, cultural, and so on, what else did you get out of the conversations that you had with your coach?

Yeah,

You coming back to have those conversations, which might not have been around specific issues

No, they weren’t, the thing that I loved about Chris, who’s our, coach, the thing that I love about him is that he will never, if you’ve got an issue and you’re talking about, he won’t tell you the answer or what he thinks the answer would be. He will just ask me a bunch of questions. Which will lead me to come to a realization that I know the answer already.

Yeah.

I just needed to verbalize it.

Isn’t that interesting?

I remember, sitting through some sessions with him Just going through the process and thinking, okay, I see, where you’re taking me here, but he took me on a journey without actually saying anything.

One of my most repeated statements to my clients when I’m helping them develop their leadership skills is, she who asks, the best questions leads what I mean by that is if you can lead the conversation by asking questions, even if you know the answer.

Correct.

It’s actually more helpful for the other person if they figure it out themselves.

But with a bit of guidance, the other thing that, that, that comes to mind from what you just said was that we know from psychology that it’s only when we verbalize and talk about things that we activate the problem solving center of the brain. It’s that ability to discuss things as opposed to think about them, circular motion.

Circular rumination at three o’clock in the morning when you’re staring at the ceiling, wondering about, cashflow or an HR issue. It’s only when you start talking about those things that the brain clicks into problem solving mode as opposed to a worrying mode. So, yeah, that certainly resonated for me.

Yeah.

You started down the journey of adopting EOS, which is, one of the excellent mid market operating systems for businesses.

How’s that gone? And, what have you found to be the most, useful? from that experience?

Yeah.

At this stage, you’re already at that stage, I think, 15 or 16 years into your business. It’s not like you were inexperienced.

No.

Tell me about that.

So prior to that, we were doing the coaching. We were loosely following a strategic planning methodology from, gazelles, the scaling up.

Yeah.

From Verne Harnish and, that was great. The whole plan on a page thing. I went to see Vern speak, I think three times.

Yes.

It was a great first start, but it seemed to be, a little bit complex in the way the plan was presented. And also it just focused on the plan.

Yes.

And then I guess the issue was that post putting the plan together, we were having trouble, executing it and keeping on task.

Yes.

And so we had our business coach for assisting with specific type of issues. There was a bit missing that wrapped it all up and kept it going and being able to execute it. That’s where fell in love with EOS it presented a simpler way to map out a strategic plan.

Yeah.

It had the tools to sit around it to actually be able to execute it the format for your meeting, the level 10 meetings, and so on.

Yes.

A scorecard, all those other things that sit around it.And all the other tools like the get it, want it, have capacity to do it. The people analyze all those other tool sets that sit around it. They were all the missing pieces for me. And has been a big game changer. I guess the challenge. when we were starting out that, we had to formalize and bring together a leadership team.

Yes.

You’re building the bike as you’re riding it. Right. And you’re not sure what you’re doing unless you’ve got everyone on board and the right people in that team, it’s not going to work as well as it could.

Yeah.

That was one of the challenges, making sure we had the right people on the team. When you’ve got a small team you just can’t pull people out of anywhere. We had some challenges at the start with, a couple of people not being the right fit for the team.

And the business in general. once we sorted that out, it really started to move.

How do you see the business progressing over the next decade? Great question. So part of implementing EOS. we started that journey close to four years ago.

Yeah.

Two and a half, three years ago, I set out to the leadership team that where I see us getting the business to is the point where it’s able to function and grow without me.

Part of a,framework that Chris, our business coach stepped me through years ago was that, you can split a business into three areas. the operational, the administrative, and the strategic part.

Yeah.

And there’s a lot of businesses that they’re born, they live and they die, just focusing or operating in a mode of, execution operation and administration.

All right.

Your local plumbers business, or, not to say anything bad about those types of trades, but a lot of sole traders, start off when they go into their business and they retire, just working on their own or with a couple of people. If they were taken out of that business, there wouldn’t be a business left. We want to get to the point where the business can operate and grow without me.

Absolutely.

We’ve well and truly gone past the point of the business being able to operate without me.

Yep.

Involved in anything operational anymore. But the growth part has always been tricky because

Yes.

in our line of business, there’s a real, a business, any business. views changing technology provider.

Yes. In the same realmchanging lawyer accountant or bank, right?

It’s a big step.

It’s a big step, right? people place trust in you as a person You’ll continue to have the business that will refer you to other people. there is a lot tied to the person.

Yes.

owner of a business.

Yeah.

So one of the things that we’ve been focusing on over the last two years is how do we grow?

How do we grow revenue? How do we acquire new business?

Yeah.

And increase profitability, without me? So of that journey has been to implement a sales management role, which we filled about 12 months ago. I’ve taken myself out of that role now. And day to day I’m feeling a business development. role.

Right.

The aim will be, over the next 12, 18 months, as we get that new sales engine, operating correctly.

Yeah.

To find someone to help, train and then replace me in that.

Yeah.

as well.

And so then you, we can jar becomes fully autonomous from the business.

want to focus on more strategic

absolutely.

components of it.

Yeah. But what a relief that’ll be as well.

Well, yeah. it’s a journey, right?

Which is a journey.

Yeah, it.

Yeah.

I think there’s light there’s definitely light at the end of the tunnel.

Fantastic. So Joe, if you were going back in time and talking to your younger self, just starting out.

Yep.

What advice would you give young Joe?

I always joke to people and I say if you’re thinking of starting a business, get a piece of paper and a pen and write this down Never start your own business No, that’s not true because I think not everyone’s cut out for it.

There’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears, like literally.

Yes,

I’ve put into this business. But going back to your question, some of the advice would be, and it’s easy, to give this advice in hindsight.

But don’t take it to heart and don’t take it personally.

Yeah.

It’s probably the biggest one because I remember,like you mentioned before, lying in bed awake weeks, because of a client problem a, people problem, a HR issue financial one. But today, if there’s issues like that, I know that there’ll be a path forward.

There’s always a way to solve a problem. So not to worry. and I guess the, a good example of that is that, we were planning. This is coming up to 10, 12 years ago now we were going to take a family holiday with the kids, overseas. So it’s the first time we were going to take the kids overseas to visit family in Europe. We knew this trip was coming up. In June or July. Coming up to Christmas, we had an account manager working for us. And he decided to leave after about four years.

Yeah.

I know I’ve got to find a replacement for this person before we go away.

Yeah.

we put out an ad interviewed, hired a person This was by February, March,

Yeah.

I

We’re on track.

Good timing. this guy followed, he was a younger guy, but he seemed cane. He followed me everywhere, met all the clients. I thought, great, this is just perfect timing. we’re coming up to the trip. I think we were leaving, it was on a Friday and my wife said, my son was still in kinder.

Yeah.

I said I’m going to the office in the morning. I’ll leave at lunchtime. I’ll pick up Sebastian, our son from kinder, and then we’ll get on the road.

Our flight was at nine in the evening. I went into the office. Say good day to everyone. Did a few emails. Lunchtime. I said, thanks everyone. I’m heading off. Went to the kinder and I was a bit early there, so that was still doing a couple of things and I was waiting room with all the kids that were having a story read to them. As I was waiting, I checked my phone and there was an email there and the subject of the email was resignation. You’re kidding.

Account manager that I had hired, eight weeks before decided to resign that morning, knowing full well that I planned this trip, that I was going away.

how, people say, you have some experiences sometimes in the room starts swimming. Like you feel like you’re swimming and that’s literally what happened.

Oh no.

I tried calling this guy. He didn’t answer. I went to the office, he wasn’t there. I went to his house, didn’t answer the door. I went back and I said to the team, I said, look, this is what’s happened. I said, I can’t cancel the trip. We’ve got to leave in about two weeks.

Yeah. I’m going to have to leave it with you.

Yeah.

And, I was feeling sick, like it was just indescribable emotion and feeling.

Yeah.

But then we got in the car, drove to the airport. By that stage I was in a state of resignation.

Yes.

There’s nothing more I can do. There’s nothing I can do. So I have to go with it. And, we were away for, I think four or five weeks.

Wow.

And got back and, the world was still turning.

The sun was still rising in the East and setting in the West all that worry, served no purpose.

Yeah.

I guess that’s a good example. something that I learned and that if I could go back and talk to my younger self would be, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

The other biggest thing is, emphasizing the importance of good leadership.

Yes.

Sometimes when you’re running your own business in it. especially in technical type of businesses where you do just get caught up in the minutia of the problem or, the technical stuff it can be a trap where you don’t focus on the people side and the leadership side of the business. I came to understand how important that is. Very quickly you can’t grow a business or maintain a good business unless you’ve got. good leadership. That’s another thing I’d go back and tell myself for sure.

Good ladies. attract good people and good people need good leaders.

Absolutely. and I guess, it’s probably not something that I’d tell myself, but something that I’ve learned. It was interesting, this person that left me in the lurch at the last minute where he resigned, because he followed me around everywhere for weeks prior, we were driving around in the car together one day and he said, Joe,

What’s your key to success in business? you’ve built this business, what’s your key to success? it just caught me on the hop and I thought, I said,persistence is the key. It was a bit ironic that he pulled the pin after six weeks,I remember there was some really dark, dark periods, right. Where, you know,

We’ve all had them.

and you really think, well, what the hell am I doing? I’ve got to pull the pin on this.whatever.

but being able to, see through that and push through it. is The biggest case to success.

I saw a meme the other day, pretty hard to lose against someone who never gives up.

Exactly.

And I think there’s, a lot of truth in

I’m a great believer that every overnight success takes about 10 years. you’ve just had a milestone birthday.

Yes.

How do you feel that, the last 23 years in business has changed you?

I’ve learned, both business and having kids, teaches you.

Yes.

Yeah, getting the process of getting older, I think allows you or gives you the ability to let go

Yeah.

I remember sitting in meetings with other staff members, and, me directing or telling people what to do or, giving my, opinion was more directives.

Yes.

In meetings, I’m happy to let everyone else lead the discussion.

Yes.

and I’ll only add my input if it’s needed asked for, or if it’s something I can see is not going to work.

Yeah.

I’ll make a comment then, just being able to let go and give people, the reins.

Yeah.

I think has been a really big step as well.

finally, Joe, if A CEO is looking to develop their business, based on your experiences and knowledge of technology, what critical few actions should they start tomorrow if they did nothing else from your experience?

I would say if they’re not getting help, definitely get a coach, need a coach. you can fool yourself as much as you like. I think it’s a Chinese proverb that says he who teaches himself has a fool as a master.

Yeah.

You gotta have a coach. It’s got to be someone that you gel with, that you have good rapport with. if they’re not asking you a bunch of questions, if they’re telling you what to do, it may or may not be the right approach for you, but you just got to find someone you can work with.

Getting a coach and having a framework, whether or not it’s EOS or some other system, having a management framework that everyone in the business, to, I think is really big. The other one, and I touched on it earlier and I probably didn’t, I probably didn’t focus on it enough in terms of, the game changing effect it had on our businessis making sure you understand the three parts of that strategic, component of a business having a well defined, company culture, well defined mission or purpose, and well defined vision that took me. a long time to understand the importance of those three things.

Yes.

I can, certainly think back to, company culture, for example, I was sitting in one of our peer group meetings talking about how important company culture is.

And I thought, yeah, you’re right. we really need to define that.

Yeah.

I reached out to some others in my peer group. I looked at what they had done and I mashed it all together put together this 300 word document, it to everyone, and then You know, six months later thought, why isn’t everyone following this company culture it’s not real.

That’s not theirs.

So that’s one thing our coach helped us with, right. Defining a real company culture. There’s only four, they’ve got pictures associated with them. They’re phrases not just words and the things that everyonedescribe, positive behaviors that we want to espouse in our business, right?

yeah.

So once we define those in a way that people could understand, absorb, and most importantly, use in day to day language, then it really started to take off.

Repetition.

Repetition and using it in, day to day language. So of the proudest moments in my business career was, I think it was sometime last year. There was, one of the meeting, the big meeting room was booked. So the technical team, They were having a weekly level 10 meeting. They couldn’t use that room. So they had to sit out and the workspace and my desk was there as well. So I could hear everything they were saying. One of the things that brought a tear to my eye and a lump in my throat was the level of mature discussion they were having in the context of this EOS level 10 meeting, but also the fact that they were using our cultural values

Wow.

talking points in the discussion that they were having. so one of our values, is build the ecosystem. So it’s about working together as,team.

They were talking about, if they want to build the ecosystem and deliver the whole ecosystem, experience, which is another one of our values. if they want to deliver the whole experience for the client, then they should be doing X, Y, Z. really now it’s working when, you’re not involved in the discussion, it’s coming out as a natural part of.

Yeah.

of their discussion. that’s probably one of the biggest things, right? making sure that early on, you define what you want your cultural values to be

Yes.

Leveraging them continuously.

If you the culture will become something that you may not want it to be.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Wow.

And, I guess tying in with that is, clearly defining your mission.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I remember seeing the Simon Sinek, the power of why video back in 2010 11, something like that.

About 70 million views ago.

Yeah. a long time ago. and just thinking, like that’s so true, right?

If we don’t understand, or if I, as an individual, don’t understand why I get up out of bed every day and go to work, or, if I can’t articulate why my business exists, then. How are our clients supposed to know why they should engage with us? why do our staff know.

Yeah. We do what we do.

Absolutely.

That was another really, big lightning bulb, moment for me. if I could go back, I’d say to myself, you need to understand this.

Yeah. and it’s not easy to evolve it. It takes time. And you need to push at it and prod at it. for it to come to be something that really resonates with you.

Absolutely. You can pull together Mickey mouse, missions and visions and even cultural values, Really easily. But, I remember going through this process with our coach and it probably took us a year. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely.

But that were the right ones and they mean something and people understand them. Yeah. No, that makes all difference.

For sure.

Joe. Thank you so much for letting me into your journey to hear about what learned along the way. I’ve found this a fascinating conversation, so I really appreciate you.

Thank you, John. Thank you very much.

You’re welcome.Thanks for listening to the Critical Few Actions podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe where you listen to podcasts. Follow us on LinkedIn for more insights and share the show with other business leaders. Stay focused, take action.